306 Hdi engine completely cutting out

I should be grateful if anyone can shed light on the cause and possible
cure to the above fault.

My 306 is a late model which has experienced this fault, intermittently,
about five times over 2 1/2 years. The problem has been referred to two
main agents, who were both familiar with the fault but without,
apparently, being able to effect a cure. Peugeot, too, must be familiar
with this fault through a BBC Watchdog programme, December 2004, regarding
the same fault on 206's.

The trouble is that without knowing all possible causes, and I think there
may be a number of them, and effecting a cure for /all/ of them you just
have no idea when it might happen again.

Quite simply the engine cuts out completely with complete loss of the
electrics, with no warning. As this has, so far, only occurred at one
geographical location I feel that this must be RF pick up due to
inadequate electrical screening. At this location there is one smallish
electricity substation and several domestic satellite aerials which might
be the culprit.

The accelerator wiring and the accelerator potentiometer has already been
replaced because of inadequate screening.

Oh, the ECU has been replaced as well, but this was related to performance
anomalies, especially during cold running.

I am told that on the 206 inadequate earthing of the engine can cause this
fault and on the 306 too. But, as I believe RF pick up is at fault here,
causing initialisation of the immobiliser, this may be a red herring. I
have had problems with RF pick up on the transponder/immobiliser near a
local hospital (lots of aerials, etc). I also think that the ECU has
something to do with immobilisation.

Some of the above may be plain rubbish but I should nonetheless like to
know how to cure the problem and would be glad to receive any advice.

Above all else, how on earth do you fault find for this type of event?

As I use the vehicle for transporting my severely disabled wife I am sure
that you will understand my dismay and alarm at this fault.

Cheers, Brian

 

I also have a very late 306 HDi, and have not, as yet, experienced the
fault you describe.

The complete electrical failures with the 206 and 307 on BBC Watchdog,
was, if I recall correctly, due to the multiplexing going south.

The 306 (even the very last ones) don't use multiplexing, so the fault is
unrelated.

There are a number of ECUs in a 306. I guess you are referring to the
injector/engine ECU. You are correct that the immobiliser is connected
with this.

I am extremely doubtful whether domestic satellite dishes and RF
substations would interfere with the car's central-locking. Perhaps your
fob battery needs replacing. As I understand it, once the car has
started, the immobiliser becomes 'deactivated' until the key is removed
from the ignition.

I would concede that there is a faulty earth somewhere. As you have
eliminated the obvious, I would take the car to a good independent auto
electrician to resolve. I wouldn't recommend a Peugeot main dealer for
this work (as your car cannot still be under warranty), but it is your
money.

 

Yes, but, I am aware that some 206's may have faulty engine earthing which
causes a similar fault, which can be fixed by cleaning and re-tightening
earthing straps.

OK. Just as well. They are far too complicated in any event. I don't think
main agents have very much understanding regarding what happens under the
bonnet.

Please could you say more. I assumed that everything ECU related was in a
single module.

I guess you might be right.

Well, couldn't the ECU itself produce this fault then?

I am unable to see what else it could be, because, so far, engine cut out
only occurs at this location. Unless, unless. This is on a left hand bend
where component movement could affect earthing, type of thing, though I
can't think what. I dunno, there are lots of left hand bends, but it's
always when the engine is cold.

Well, I have been told that the complete cut out is caused by the
immobiliser being reactivated. At least, that was my understanding.

But, comment re fob battery noted.

Yes, but good ones are few and far between. It's a long story, but no way
do I wish to return to the main agent who bodged the very simplest of
warranty work. And I'll never know if the fault has been fixed unless it
returns, if you see what I mean. For reasons previously stated it is
worrying.

Thanks.

Cheers, Brian.

 

Don't judged all dealers by the bad experience you have had.I have 100 %
understanding of what goes on under the bonnet your comments piss me off
..Also we have the technical knowledge diagnostic equipment ,
oscilloscopes, canaylsers , specific laptops to diagnose work.Even now in
block exemption "fred from the shed" hasn't got the stuff we have (inc
some far out p-codes) .Any technician let alone a "auto electrician" can
diagnose a faulty earth using v-drop ??????.From both your statements its
obvious you knowledge is lacking to say the least.

 

Young man, I quite agree with you about not all Peugeot dealers being
incompetent. Luckily the one I use, Thorp of Alderminster, is good and
always has been in my 20+ years of dealing with them. But there are others
that are not (and it's not exclusive to Peugeot by any means), in spite of
all the kit that you say they have. I'm not sure why this is, but it does
illustrate a problem I now have: Peugeots are not a patch on what they were
when I started driving them, but the people I get them from are the best I
have ever found. Do I look for a better car and risk a rubbish dealer or do
I stick with what is now a pretty unremarkable drive and a good garage?

You may wonder why I addressed you as I did. In my experience people who
claim a 100% understanding of anything are either very young or fools. I
prefer to think you are the former ;-)

Ron Robinson

 

Thank you ron for your comments,I consider myself to have a good
understanding of what goes on concerning peugeot vehicles as the name
implies im a master technician .In the last master technician of the year
competition i finished 5th in THE COUNTRY so draw your own conclusions
please .Im happy to see you have stuck with the product ,which
unfortunately perhaps isn't as good as it used to be due to customers
demands for more gismos on vehicles hence more chance of malfunction (law
of averages).Thankyou for also seeing not all peugeot dealers are
incompetent ,a lot of people stereotype all peugeot/other dealerships as
"the same" when really they are seperate entity's and are merely franchises.
As regarding >"what is now a pretty unremarkable drive" < i think peugeots
still drive great its just the reliability is poor!!. thankyou........
p.s.( im 31 so i'll consider that young ;-) )

 

Mark. Glad you took my post in the spirit it was meant. OK, you're good,
but the way Peugeots and their electronics are going I bet you have been
caught out once or twice ;-). I think a certain amount of the problem with
the electronics is that it is a new technology both to the makers and those
who have to work on it. It probably worked very well in pre-production
form - almost hand-made in limited quantities, but once you start churning
out thousands of the things, that's a very different matter.
IMHO the problem with Peugeots nowadays is not that the customers demand the
gismos, it's that the makers are having to fit them to distinguish their
product from all the others which are being built to specifications
originating in the market research department. There was a time when (with
a minor exception or two) Peugeot ride and handling was way ahead of any
other quantity produced car. To my surprise and delight this survived the
introduction of front wheel drive and lasted through to the 405 and early
306 (well the XT anyway). A few years ago I drove a V6 406 coupe and was
really disappointed because although it did most of the things I wanted it
to do, it did it in such a grudging way that it took all the joy out of it.
Before that one has always had the impression that Peugeots liked being
driven and if they recognised a similar feeling in the driver they would
reward it. But with the 406 I got the feeling that the guy in their
engineering department who enjoyed driving had retired. I found out later
that I was right.

Ron Robinson

 

MARK BANKS PEUGEOT MASTER TECHNICIAN via CarKB.com <>
wrote:



Mark. You are shouting!!

I speak as I find, mate.

I'm not impressed.

So? Clearly the two dealers I dealt with did nothing of the kind. They
most certainly failed to find a cure or realise how potentially dangerous
the fault is.

No, I don't, and that's why I was asking for help. Your reply says a very
great deal about you and nothing about solving a very worrying problem. I,
however, am, permanently, totally knackered looking after a very sick wife.
How about actually trying to be helpful.

In any event I think the problem is RFI related not earthing. I understand
that portable telephone transmissions are a known culprit, which is
astonishing. It is also clear to me that, in spite of what you say, that
there are faults with the 306 ECU causing spurious engine fault codes that
Master Technicians have no idea how to resolve. All they do is clear the
fault code, and two main dealer's Master Technicians have admitted as much
to me. I've had an engine fault code "No Fault". That is just really crap
engineering. (Generally speaking, false and spurious fault codes on
industrial plant can lead to very serious commercial loss or injury. I
know through experience. I've seen it happen) Master Technicians have also
told me that they are aware of other 306's showing exactly the same fault.
One said that driving a particular vehicle past the Naval aerial arrays at
Portsmouth (I think) caused the same vehicle to cut out, every time, quite
predictably.

RFI is a known problem for the 306 as also are voltage spikes in the
electrical system, as I am sure you are aware. Master Technicians were
unable to assure me that adequate and complete screening had been fitted
to all 306's to cure known RFI problems. In this regard my own 306
immobiliser/transponder(?) has failed to work, through RFI, which Master
Technicians were unable to cure, and showed little interest in. One was
far from surprised and actually found it to be amusing. Perhaps you would
care to comment.

It is not difficult to imagine a scenario, the engine cutting out in
high speed driving conditions, overtaking for instance, where someone is
going to end up very, permanently, dead.

In many, many years driving I have never ever experienced, nor heard of,
engines cutting out, dead, in this way. It's, fundamentally, crap
engineering.

Brian

 

IMHO, all 306s have excellent ride and handling: all 3 phases. The 307
seems to be a completely different car, for a less discerning driver (more
concerned with shopping and kids).

Not sure my next car will be a Peugeot though.

 

First of all sorry to hear the predicament you are in .If your certain
its a screening problem ... put screened wires in ??? we have similar on
accerator pedal sensor coherence problems ,and by fitting THE CORRECT
SCREENED WIRES AND EARTHING IT PROPERLY (and yes i know i'm shouting) it
cures it .But RFI causing a vehicle to cut out is very rare , personally
ive known it cause a few central locking problems and thats it.If this m.t
had a known problem of a vehicle cutting out going past a naval base first
of all you have got to screen all of the relevant wires if this still
happens ( which in my opinion it shouldn't )what the hell do you expect
him to do ?re-design the electrical structure of the vehicle!!???.you
comment's about voltage spikes and RFI incents prone to 306's is utter
bollocks ,For rfi ive known it on 307 ,206 as well ,and voltage spikes..
yes can be due to crap sagem coils breaking down but also can be due to
double relays etc.. breaking down failing too due to back e.m.f .Also your
comment>>>Master Technicians have admitted as much

about five times over 2 1/2 years. <<< (about once every half a year say
just as a example) what chance have the poor blokes got?.

 

I would expect you to have this equipment at the very least and you can
only ever be as good as what Peugeot are prepared to tell you. For
commercial reasons they will keep a very great deal of technical
information back.

My local "fred from the shed", now retired, was the tops, and was always
bemoaning the fact that much of his work was putting right work that main
agents had screwed up, including my Peugeot 309, where the main agent had
caused £100's worth of damage. Sorry, your comments are badly misplaced.

Absolutely. I would expect no less.

The predicament has been exacerbated by a main agent who was quite
prepared to faff about for 2 1/2 years during the warranty period and tell
me as little as possible about the nature of the faults (that's my
perception, anyway). It made it quite impossible for me to pursue a
resolution to faults of any kind.

I was not in a position to do anything during the warranty period myself
(I've been down that route before and come unstuck). Peugeot themselves
made a complete dog's breakfast of extending the warranty and so denied me
a decent resolution this difficulty.

Easily said, but where might the RFI problem/s be which would create these
problem/s. There's a lot of wiring in there.

The main agent had reached the point of intending to completely replace
the engine wiring loom. Why?

Peugeot HQ stopped them. Why?

Yes, this has been done, but cures only one fault, not necessarily /all/
faults.

I pass.

I think that there may well be a design fault. Certainly, I'm of the
opinion that the ECU firmware has bugs in it which could well cause
spurious fault codes. And I do expect Peugeot to do something. One fault
is potentially a killer.

How so? Spikes in electrical systems are very very common and are lethal
to digital systems. Please justify your comment.

RFI incidents in 306's - I've got them! Other people have too!

Well, you've just well and truly lost me. You seem to be completely
contradicting what you've said previously.

At the very least, it leaves the owner in the position of having
repeatedly to take the vehicle to the main agent and get them to clear the
fault code, which is really irritating. At the worst, and this is the
salient bit, the owner starts to ignore /all/ fault codes because they
mistrust the vehicle's fault system, and may end up with serious damage.
That's why it's crap engineering. I've seen it happen on very large plant
worth £1,000,000's.

Equally, an intermittent RFI problem such as the one I've got may be
safety related and the inability to find and rectify the fault, for
whatever reason, may ultimately lead to loss of life.

Well, you seem to be saying that you too are in a similar position to any
other Master Technicians who just clear fault codes, where they appear
very intermittently.

 

Well, you seem to be saying that you too are in a similar position to any

 

Well, that's the way it reads.

I hear what you say, thanks. Please note that I already put my money where
my mouth is when I originally bought the whatsit thing.