205 CTI: snapped timing belt

Discussion in 'Peugeot 205' started by Norman Anthes, May 31, 2004.

  1. Hello,

    I changed the timing-belt on my CTI yesterday, also changed the
    tensioner. The engine was running fine afterwards, no unusual noise,
    absolutely nothing unusual actually, but after some 4 or 5 km the belt
    snapped.

    First question: Could it be that the belt snapped because I put too
    much tension on it via the new tensioner? This is about the only
    explanation I can think of. A little bit of stupidity on my side
    there, thinking the belt needed to be real tight, reading afterwards
    that it did not need to be _that_ tight. :-(

    Second (more important) question: Is there any way I can tell whether
    valves / valve stems or pistons are damaged without taking the
    cylinder head off? And how likely is it that they are damaged? I know,
    pretty likely, but hope dies last.

    If I have to take the head off ... Anyone know how to detach the
    enginemount on the right side of the engine from the cylinder head
    without taking the whole engine out beforehand? There appears to be a
    pretty long screw, but only some 2 cm room to take it out.

    Thanks!

    Norman
     
    Norman Anthes, May 31, 2004
    #1
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  2. Hi,

    Actually snapped?? Sounds like a defective belt - could be a warranty
    claim.

    It's probably not possible to damage a healthy timing-belt that way,
    considering how tough they are - but you'd certainly overload the camshaft
    and tensioner bearings and 'run' them prematurely by over-tensioning.

    In your place, I'd remove the plugs, wind the pistons back so they're
    all about halfway down the bores (i.e. well clear of the valve gear), shine
    a powerful light down the plug-hole, wind one pair of pistons up at a time
    and try to see whether I could spot any bright dents in the crowns. If I saw
    none, I'd try to double-check that there's no interference between
    piston-crown and valve-gear by setting the camshaft with any one pair of
    valves open together and rocking (i.e. both at maximum lift, with maximum
    possibility of interaction with the piston crowns), and then winding the
    crank round with a short (30cm) wrench to find out whether I could feel any
    resistance (at all). If I met none, it would probably be safe to assume that
    I'd gotten away with it.

    Can't help with that part - ask a counter-man or mechanic at the local
    Peugeot dealership. (Is it possible that the mounting bolts should be
    removed from the chassis end of the mounting, leaving the engine mounting
    attached to the head? How would you get the whole engine out without
    removing the mounting-bolts first?)

    Good luck - please post your results, so that we all find out something
    practical that we can use in future.

    Regards

    Philip
     
    Philip Andrews, May 31, 2004
    #2
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  3. Norman Anthes

    G.T Guest

    Hi,
    Raise the engine from oil tank (underneath the engine), then remove the
    engine mount. 17mm bolts, IIRC.
     
    G.T, May 31, 2004
    #3
  4. Hi,

    thanks for the quick answer.

    Yes, snapped. I tought that it was rather strange, too. And there are
    no marks whatsoever on the belt where it could 've been grinding.
    Trouble is, that on DIY they refuse warranty, assuming that _you_ made
    the mistake.
    Good idea, will try that first. Is it normal BTW that when turning the
    camshaft (pistons in secure position!) that it does not turn all the
    way around freely but rather feels like it needs to overcome some
    resistance at the point when the cams start pressing down the valves?
    (horrible english, but cars are not my profession, and I'm german)
    Well ... it is quite a large block of metal, and one screw is attached
    to the head, two others to the block. Maybe I try and have a go to
    remove the two bolts that are attached to the block and then take the
    head out with the mount. But how do I hold up the engine then, since
    the hook, where you are supposed to lift the whole unit up (i.e. for
    belt change), is mounted to the head.
    Like: Never touch your Timing Belt?

    I had done some work on the engine before, getting rid of the
    'kangaroo' effect and quite poor low-rev performance of the CTI/GTI
    that is commonly described in this group. The car _DID_ run like a
    dream afterwards. Wanted to post it altogether as a story of success.
    Maybe later.

    Bye

    Norman
     
    Norman Anthes, May 31, 2004
    #4
  5. Had the same idea, but was wondering whether the oil tank would hold
    the weight and didn't want to ruin yet another part.

    Bye

    Norman
     
    Norman Anthes, May 31, 2004
    #5
  6. Hiiii,

    Then, it was 'defective in manufacture'.

    An easy get-out - bad news for you, though. 'Don't buy another product
    from that maker (or factor)' is all you can win from this accident.

    (No worries about 'language' - I'll try to keep it simple.) The answer
    is 'yes, it is' - because you're applying leverage against the progressive
    increase of pressure of the valve-springs by turning the camshaft . You'll
    feel the same periodic 'notchiness' (i.e. a steady increase and decrease of
    resistance) as you cycle right round two complete turns of the camshaft. If
    you take the cam-cover off and watch the valve-gear while feeling what's
    happening at your hands, you'll quickly come to understand why this is so.
    I would use a scissor-jack under the sump (if it looks as though it's a
    strong, cast item), using a large, thick, strong block of wood to spread the
    load, before trying to remove the engine-mounting bolts. That method will
    support the weight of the engine properly when the engine-mounting is
    detached, and will not cause damage to the sump.

    No - what you've struck is simple bad luck with a defective product. I
    have never heard of a timing-belt snapping before - in fact, they don't even
    strip the teeth off when they're about 3 times overdue for a change on
    mileage, and under-tensioned as well - so. don't be discouraged by this
    event.

    Best of luck - let us know how things go.

    Regards

    Philip
     
    Philip Andrews, May 31, 2004
    #6
  7. Norman Anthes

    Nigel Guest

    Yes it will hold the weight as long as you jack it up in the corner by
    the sump plug and not directly in the middle.
    Another way of checking for damage to the valves is to check the
    valeve clearances. Remove the top cover and check the camshaft. In
    extreme cases this can break, also the bearing caps. If all ok check
    the clearances. Inlet .20mm, exhaust .40mm.
    Was it a genuine Peugeot belt? What year is the CTi? Up to approx 1992
    the belt tensioner was spring tensioned and was pretty much foolproof.
    After that it was a manual tensioner, and supposed ti use a SEEM
    tensioner tool.
     
    Nigel, May 31, 2004
    #7
  8. Norman Anthes

    G.T Guest

    Hello,
    Of course, I thought it was needless to give the precision.
    For a basic work like cambelt kit change, you could also hook the head,
    there's something for it on right side of the lump, but not for removing
    head, of course. This "something" (don't know the word, sorry) being bolted
    to head.
    No need of asking for the system used, because we are in 2004, and belt kit
    should have been changed at least once, and I guess there is only one spare
     
    G.T, Jun 1, 2004
    #8
  9. Thank you all for your replies. I will keep you informed on the
    proceedings.

    I have taken the sump off earlier, and it really did not look very
    sturdy. But with a chunk of wood underneath, I might try it.
    Camshaft is fine, so are the bearings. Was the first thing I looked
    after when I had the car back home. Checking Clearance sounds like a
    good idea, so is philip's idea to look in through the spark-plug holes
    with a bright light. Gonna try both and see.
    No, the belt was aftermarket, so was the tensioner. The car is from
    '93. The tensioner does not appear to have a spring, it looks
    basically like a quite big ball-bearing with an eccentric mounting
    hole and another square hole to apply tension.

    Bye

    Norman
     
    Norman Anthes, Jun 1, 2004
    #9
  10. Norman Anthes

    Nigel Guest

    Then I suggest when you rebuild, you use a genuine Peugeot belt abd
    tensioner. OK it may cost more, but it should not break. As for
    tensioning, it is a manual tensioner and needs to be done with care.
    Set the tension so that you can twist the belt approx. 45 degrees.
    Tighten all bolts, remove any timing pins, replace the bottom pulley
    and bolt without the belt cover, and start the engine. Rev to 2000 and
    back to idle, while watching the belt on the long run, from camshaft
    pulley to crankshaft pulley. Ther should be no "whip" as the engine
    goes to idle, and also no whine. If there is any whip then tighten
    slightly and retest. If there is excessive whine then loosen slightly.
    A slight whine is ok, and I have found it disappears after a while. Of
    course you could invest in a SEEM tensioner tool . . . . . !!!!!
     
    Nigel, Jun 1, 2004
    #10
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